(Read full interview here [long transcript]:interview

Dane Tops [D]: I wanted to say that I have hardly ever run into anyone who got involved with this subject - or offshoots of this subject - after 1975, who didn’t have anything but a very bad opinion toward the Church of Scientology. Personally, I believe that before I (quote) “blew the whistle” the place was already completely infiltrated by the Illuminati. Their intention was to produce exactly that result (a very bad opinion) on the general public. The Church was fully corrupted and made a mockery of what it was intended to be and started out to be. Goal accomplished.

The reason it was infiltrated by the Illuminati is because of the mind control techniques that could be developed from the 1950 book that Ron Hubbard published, and soon after because of the paranormal abilities that Hubbard’s techniques were producing. The Illuminati thought it could not allow humanity to discover their true innate powers and ability.

In the 50s, those abilities were virtually unheard of. Today, there are dozens of understandings in the general public that were not extant then. I believe that Hubbard’s discoveries and techniques filtered down into literally hundreds of subjects from black ops (direct mind control used for dark purposes) on to personal therapies, self help organizations, new religions, cults and into general medical literature now considered standard knowledge.

In the ’40s Hubbard discovered and demonstrated that there is no memory that cannot be recovered. That was startling and unbelievable. At that time he developed techniques to have people recall memories that occurred at birth AND from conception onwards. Memories were verified for accuracy with, for instance, the doctor at birth. Or with the parents for incidents that happened during the pregnancy. He developed techniques that allowed anybody to recall anything in their history with a little work. We’re not talking about imagination; we’re talking about literally verified birth and womb memory: full conversations, and exact events.

Now, he did this work in the ’40s, and he wrote about it in a book called Dianetics, a Modern Science of Mental Health in 1950. The book was a best seller. Russia tried to contact and hire him and the reason Russia wanted him was because they recognized that the techniques in that book could be reversed so that they could develop psychic warfare and mind control techniques.

The Russians realized that the out of body perceptions that Hubbard was developing could be used to spy and collect information from remote locations. The Russians saw that the power of the mind could be focused remotely to influence the thoughts of others at a distance. Russia started testing their children and developing the ones with the most skills. The US followed.

After Camelot, I now realize that at that time - in the 50s - we had just recovered ET bodies in crashed disks. I now see the Russians and the USA were interested in Hubbard’s techniques not due to mutual animosity, but because the governments were really scared about the ET problem. If they’d told Hubbard what was going on, he would have been happy to help and would have done a lot better job of it than our governments did. Hubbard already knew more about the ETs than the governments did, because people were recovering memories of many various races of ETs, of interplanetary wars or prior earth histories of wars, of intelligent robots, clones, cyborgs - you name it. But Russia wanted to use Hubbard’s material without TELLING him what was happening with the influx of crashed disks and recovered ET bodies that escalated immediately following the bombing of Hiroshima.

By the early 60s, Hubbard was teaching the general public openly about his independent discovery that this universe was heavily populated with intelligent life and various life forms and body types. The crashed alien disks would have been SOP [Standard Operating Procedure] to him. He could have really assisted the governments to do a lot better job of it, rather than to screw up the entire theme of contact the way it has been. He would not have been technically overwhelmed by the ETs. He would have sent out ambassadors to access their intent, and these would have been people who had accessed their own memories about the various races populating the universe and who were getting re-acquainted with their history.

Russian efforts to hire him were intense. He was presumed to be someone who could be utilized to develop any number of psychic abilities, warfare abilities and spying abilities. The US versus Russia cold war was not real except to the lower level people. It was a distraction for the public. All this time, UFOs were freely infiltrating US and Russian airspace. The entire cold war was a front and actually the US and Russia were united behind the scenes, at the top, in fighting and attempting to “catch up” with the feared common unknown potential enemy, the ETs.

So the intent to procure him started in the 1950s after the book was published. During the ’50s Hubbard’s provable discoveries about the mind/body/spirit were unheard of. During that time the kinds of results that were being standardly produced on people – my friend here amongst them [Ed. note: present at the interview, anonymity requested], who saw many of these things – were an enhancement of what in common language is known as psychic or paranormal ability.

Some people had levitated, some had seen through solid matter, and others had gone outside of their body with full perception of where they were. When the Russians failed to hire Hubbard, they broke in his home, stole the material, and altered the techniques to begin the Russian mind control programs with the USA doing the same later.

Instead of using his techniques to naturally develop psychic abilities and to recall our past lives and in-between life memories as Hubbard intended, the governments extracted from Hubbard’s works what he’d discovered that has been done down through time to control human behavior through force.

So the modern subject of mind control and Manchurian Candidates and much more was re-researched and developed to a fine art form. As best I know, the techniques were largely “inspired” from Hubbard’s material. I say that because the techniques that have been used, such as the Montauk Chair, are described in detail in Hubbard’s work. That sort of chair has been used down through time and is in our memories from way back. There’s nothing new under the sun. We’ve all been around for a long time.

Hubbard recovered from many persons the same memories of how to control the mind by force and hypnosis. He wanted to undo the effects on all of us by training a world-wide army of people skilled in helping mankind to recover their memory of having a veil put over their minds to the point that we do not know our own past.

It was known by Hubbard and completely acknowledged by the ’50s that we were, or that each human was a spiritual entity, not a body, nor a mind; that all of an individual’s history was recorded in energy patterns in their body cells, but also around their bodies, which he defined as the Mind. He discovered anew that mankind goes forward from life to life to life and memory record is taken forward with the spirit entity or soul which is each person’s complete self. That each person IS a soul rather than HAS a soul was his new major definition of what man IS. In the 50s, this description of the soul was not common.

One thing Hubbard did prove that was... well… he went on a trip around the world to test that his memory was accurate. He went to different locations to verify that just by his recall the memory of locations he had never been in this life was accurate.

Hubbard came out of an era where there were people called Spiritualists who contacted the dead. There were a lot of séances in the US: it had become all the rage. There are newspaper accounts of someone in England in the 1860s doing body levitation and flying out of one upper story window and into another one [Ed note: this was Daniel Dunglas Home].

Blavatsky, a researcher and author who had psychic abilities, actually killed an animal 40 miles away; that’s documented and witnessed. So Hubbard heard about all these things during the era he grew up in. He wanted to find out how these abilities came about, and what the explanation for it was and how come people were reported to do these things. He wanted to understand it scientifically.

Hubbard researched healing techniques and discovered that trauma and pain in our past really affects us negatively and that those effects can be reversed and that they were the cause of all psychosomatic illness or accidents in accident-prone people. His discoveries were phenomenal. The techniques for a full and total recall of past-life memories came soon afterwards. Then, the research to develop psychic abilities to the point that one could see through walls and access all their prior knowledge; do any number of psychic phenomena; these were the kinds of things that were being developed in the ’50s and early 60s.

Ingo Swann was part of the same era. He was still there in the ’70s when I was involved, in Los Angeles, coming up through these levels.

Bill Ryan [B]: What do you mean by levels?

D: Well, in Scientology, they had grades you went through where you progressed from ability to ability to ability, and so Ingo Swann was going through those grades, those levels. There was a magazine that was put out by the Church of Scientology where people that went through these levels would write things that they experienced. Almost every month Ingo was in this magazine with what he had done next, alongside others who were also getting these sorts of results.

People who would report their results, such as moving a car sideways to avoid an auto accident, seeing through walls, going out of the body with all the perception to see and hear, levitating themselves, making things materialize, like that [snaps fingers], healing a chronic illness or a personal relationship that seemed to have been permanently destroyed.

There were some extraordinary healing stories. Later he had to retract any claims that the techniques could heal due to the AMA [American Medical Association] and the psyches [psychiatrists], with whom he ended up in a lifelong battle. At first he offered his discoveries to psychiatry, until he realized that many psyches just wanted to drug people, do lobotomies and use electric shock.

Then he organized his own black ops within his organization in order to expose harmful psychiatric practices with so-called “healing” techniques. His organization spied on the IRS and published records of their crimes. He sent infiltrators from his Church into the IRS to spy. They were quite successful.

Although the governments had not succeeded in hiring Hubbard, they did hire Scientologists who had demonstrated paranormal abilities. They were not hard to find because Scientology published articles about what people were achieving.

Ingo was hired by the government. I mean, he went to work in a program at the Stanford Research Institute with a number of other Scientologists to study paranormal things. I remember reading an SRI report that they were having Ingo heat up objects and measuring how hot he could make them. And that was just the start of what he could do.

What Ingo was doing was not different from the things that a lot of us were doing as a result of the training and what Hubbard named processing, or auditing. That’s what he called it. Hubbard often used computer terms and terms that made it seem very mechanical. But really what we were dealing with and what the discovery was that we were dealing with was a spirit, a spiritual being, and that’s what we are; a spiritual being – an immortal spiritual being with any number of godlike abilities.

Later Ingo became famous as the father of remote viewing, a watered-down word for what he was actually able to do and which many of us were doing, which wasn’t “remote” viewing – but it was out of body: going out of your body with perception, more perception sometimes than you had IN your body. These techniques can be used to keep developing control over time and ultimately control over the dimension that you’re in. Yes.

B: Somebody I knew described it as more like knowing whatever you want to know because you decide you want to know. That’s actually what Hubbard coined the word Scientology as – it’s the study of knowing how to know.

D: Yes, knowing how to know. Well, actually, he didn’t coin the word. You can find in the ’30s in a German book “Scientologie” - spelled differently - with the rudimentary version of what became the Scientology Axioms [Ed. note: Scientologie, by Dr. A. Nordenholz, 1934]. Hubbard discovered many things on his own but he put together amazing things, like... He ended up having to lie and say he was the sole developer of it all, an unfortunate solution for a problem he was having managing his organization. I knew the person who suggested that he lie and how it came about that he did. He had started out acknowledging and giving credit to many of his sources. There was no turning back after he lied about it.

Kerry Cassidy [K]: Somebody gave me that book. Scientologie.

D: You have it?

K: I have it, yes.

D: I’d love to see that. It’s got the original version of a brilliant work called The Axioms of Scientology. Brilliant work. There’s another work he has called The Factors, which I find even...

K: I have it.

D: I’d love to see the book. I haven’t seen it in years.

K: It’s here in my library.

D: Great.

B: Sure. Its “knowing how to know”. I was just making a comment that it is about knowingness rather than acquiring... Acquiring data is like a lower harmonic of this sort of knowingness, that one can sort of permeate anything in the universe at any time and actually extract that information if one’s operating at sufficiently – we’re running into problems of vocabulary here – at a sufficient level of consciousness, one can acquire and download that information.

D: Right. That’s true. Another way to do it is to re-access our own memories. hat’s another way to know. But, you know, to some degree you can get almost anybody to do that. But, if one doesn’t go through some developed discipline, one can’t master levels of energy and success with mental and psychic discipline. And so these discoveries were all happening then in Scientology. It was terribly exciting. That was what we worked on, these kinds of discoveries, at that time.

K: Okay. Can I just interject? Rather than a philosophical discussion, it would be better if the point was made...

D: It’s not philosophical, because even in some of the Camelot interviews... Who was the one that said: This is the greatest secret of all, is the power you have and who you are and what you are. This is the greatest secret.

K: Well, Camelot is saying that. We are saying that.

D: There was a witness also who specifically said that to you.

K: Bob Dean was talking about that.

B: I think what you’re referring to here is what Bill Birnes described Admiral George Hoover as saying: The greatest secret, actually, is the enormous power that all human beings have.

D: Right. Now the trouble with Ron Hubbard was he discovered this greatest secret within the realm of his studies and he discovered techniques to develop enhanced abilities so that he, with his techniques, was producing people who could go out of their body, go in another room, look at anything they wanted, and report accurately what was there. He was producing people who could travel wherever they wanted in the universe and report back on what they’d seen, heat up an object – like they made Ingo do when he went up to Stanford [laughs] – paranormal and psychic... more than psychic... godlike abilities to manifest, appear, disappear and KNOW things.

Ingo tells the story of how they gave him a job of going to the moon. He called it remote viewing, but I assure you, Ingo WENT to the moon! And that’s how the government found out that there were ETs on the moon. And very aware ETs, because Ingo quickly found out that the ETs who were on the moon were able to sense that he was there, even though he went there out of body.

These abilities were why the governments wanted to hire him, learn from him, and develop means to train others to do the same. So Hubbard’s methods could enhance our native natural abilities and could be used for spying operations and war. But as I said, the governments were dealing with ETs and they didn’t tell Hubbard that. The Scientologists were recovering memories of our past, loaded with all kinds of space scenes - Hubbard called it “space opera”. Star Wars and Star Trek were really popular with Scientologists as it was very real to us as our own past.

We didn’t know there was contact in our own present-day, however, and that our governments were going nuts trying to find a way to make our technology AND our mental abilities catch up with the ETs. Developing telepathy was an important part of it all and Hubbard’s materials offered great hope for the development of all these skills and more. And that’s also why the governments wanted his research.

So, enhanced psychic abilities were being produced in Scientology and Hubbard was busy describing the fact that we have such abilities innately, and have been manipulated out of using them by mind control. Russia stole his research and used it to start their psychic development programs on their children.

We did that too, but they were ahead of us, because the Russian psychic programs took Hubbard more seriously. Hubbard casually mentioned the theft of his research materials during a lecture once.

But when Hubbard refused to play along, he became a target TO be feared by the government. They didn’t the public to recover these enhanced abilities, only those children the put into the programs. In addition, they began to recover technology from the ETs about how to control the minds and bodies of mankind.

Their choices about how to utilize all this new knowledge were poor as they were too uninformed about our history in the universe. That’s were Hubbard could have been of far more use to them. So, he became a target to be feared. The governments didn’t want an army of Scientologists capable of knowing what was going on for real.

So, Hubbard went on the run and ended up getting a fleet of ships and escaping governments which were trying to stop Hubbard. He thought he was targeted because he was using his organization to spy on the IRS and the psychiatrists and exposing their crimes. Hubbard didn’t fully know the depth of why he was such a target.

They wanted to use his material to develop abilities like the ETs had - but the governments did not want the general public to get those abilities! And the movement was exploding like wildfire with centers springing up world-wide to teach what Hubbard had learned and use his techniques. So Hubbard lived on the ocean on a constant escape route, trying to get away, directing research programs, developing the techniques, and producing people who restored the innate abilities they have as infinite spirits.

And his purpose was... well, he said that mankind was going to be destroyed soon if there wasn’t a massive change in human consciousness, and he was trying to produce that change using these techniques before it was too late. His goal was to wake us up from our amnesia.

Now, the Church of Scientology was destroyed from within by the US secret government. I’m certain of this. And it was done by the use of children.

As time passed through the 70s, there were so many things about Hubbard that indicated that he was tampered with that indicate that either he was being cloned or he had extraordinary but deteriorating abilities, or a combination of both.

For instance, there are reports of the different kinds of bodies that he had, different wardrobes, fully different size wardrobes. And on the ship, there were reports of somebody being downstairs being taught in a room by him and upstairs, he’s also upstairs working. And that sometimes he was one height and size and the next day he was a different size.

B: I think, if I remember right, it was Geoffrey Filbert who reported that. Isn’t that right?

D: Yes, I think so. He was one of the ones who wrote abut this.

K: Okay, now what I would like to ask is that you’re saying that “based on information you were told.” In other words, why do you know what you know? You might talk a little bit about who you were in the organization.

D’s friend: I was in it from the beginning. Ron’s character stayed the same for many years. But in the late 70s it changed and underwent a full turnaround. I don’t know about cloning, but something happened to change him, something heavy.

He had a heart attack in the 70s, and they had to go ashore in South America to take him to a hospital. It made no sense, and was hidden from the people in the Church. His personality underwent a drastic change. Maybe a clone was substituted. In the last years, he was barely running the Church at all and became interested in music.

It was as if he abandoned his organization and the urgency to save the planet - but he was still alive. He seemed to go farther and farther away from even having an interest in his mission, which had been all-urgent, all-important, and a race against time to save the planet.

D: Well, okay. I didn’t know that cloning existed back then. Until Camelot, I had no idea how developed human cloning is. But whatever happened, he changed, and that was obvious. There are a lot of ways to exert mind control. Maybe that was it. But what we know beyond a doubt is that he was a target, and that he was affected, and that he went from fearless to fearful; from brave to paranoid.

Getting back to the story, I knew lots of people that were high up in the organization, including Hubbard’s family. I knew people who worked directly with him from way back. In the late 70s, Hubbard’s family was separated from him, so they couldn’t see OR talk to him. His wife was later put in jail, his children couldn’t reach him, and he was isolated in order to take him down.

But I was close to his children even after his wife, Mary Sue, was jailed. And so I was able to observe the control and manipulation on his family and hear the resulting upset, confusion and betrayal, because they and everyone else who was cut off thought that Ron was choosing to ignore them and talk with them or see them.

They couldn’t conceive that their powerful father was an unknowing victim of black ops. I knew about the bags of millions of cash dollars that were couriered from one place to another. It took a lot of money to keep from being captured by the government, a lot of money, and he just used it as cash to escape and to fund his own reverse-spy operations back on the government and to buy expensive property outright.

He put up a good fight, but he didn’t know what he was up against and how many resources would be used to take him down. They made a big mistake not telling him about the ETs. We wouldn’t have signed the treaty with the wrong race of ETs if they had utilized his knowledge and hired him directly.

He started out with a sterling intention to help mankind, but little by little his organization was infiltrated, and massively infiltrated in the end, so much so that I don’t even know if the person who eventually died WAS the body of the original Ron Hubbard.

I don’t actually know. and don’t have a way to know. But we do know people that were near him very close to the end, and he was a far cry from what he was in the beginning. Since studying all that I have now, including Camelot, I know we have had full cloning technology of humans since the 60s from aliens, and how very much it is now being employed for “problem leaders”. They just get a new model whenever they are unhappy with the old one.